General search in this section (dd6;st=0) Other discussions: J.S. Bach Mandolin Book and CD (Oh! My Bach (Bach recommndations (Courante from the Second Suite (Bach on Mandolin (More on Bach Cello Suites (Starting the Second Cello Suite (Jim.

It's time someone in the mandolin world stepped up and recorded entire suites/partitas/sonatas of Bach instead of exerpts (preludes, courantes, whatever). When John Williams recorded all four lute suites on classical guitar it was a defining moment as far as establishing the guitar as a serious legitimate instrument.

(With all apologies to Segovia)Are you listening Theile, Marshall, Carlos, whomever I missed?) A daunting task but surely someone is capable at this stage of the instruments development. I'm not so sure a full-lown recording or the suites or the sonatas and partitas on mandolin (or mandolin family instruments) is an especially good idea (as opposed to treating them as study material, which is an excellent idea). I have played both on mandolin (and mandola) and classical guitar, and the music is far more idiomatic to realize on guitar (although the suites do sound lovely on mandola). I have heard many (if not all) of the extant recordings of various movements on mandolin and, with all due respect to the artists involved, the gap vis-a-vis the extant guitar recordings -- not to mention Nigel North on the lute, or any of the relevant recordings on cello or violin -- is, frankly, considerable. The Thile live recording for example has good energy but falls short (significantly) on ornamentation. The Marshall recording lacks tonal refinement (and legato).

Jul 22, 2017. The first, called Concert Suite, consists of eight purely instrumental movements in the original instrumentation and is performed fairly often. Violin Sonata No. 1 in G Minor. Violin Sonata No. 3 in C Major. BWV 1005 (ca. Bach's six works for unaccompanied vi.

I think this has much more to do with the inherent limitations of the mandolin than the artists. Basically, there is no point to recording these pieces on the mandolin unless the instrument can add something (just ask yourself, would a Millstein or a Ma learn something from such a recording?) A plausible case can be made in this regard for guitar (cf.

For example, the introduction to Stanley Yate' edition of the cello suites for guitar) and certainly lute, but I have yet to hear a convincing case for mandolin. Basically, there is no point to recording these pieces on the mandolin unless the instrument can add something (just ask yourself, would a Millstein or a Ma learn something from such a recording?) I see your point, but i disagree a little. I think any time someone does something that was previously considered impossible, it energizes all other players. Witness the stir that that Jake Shimabukuro's ukulele video caused here a few weeks ago.

And IMHO, pointless albums are recorded every week anyway, so it wouldn't do much harm. Margora, I would respectfully disagree with the guitar as an instrument being more idiomatic than mandolin for Bach. Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of Bach on guitar but the problem lies in libertys that artists take when making their transcriptions. Specifically adding notes/chords (and worse in some samples).i.e. Julian Bream's transcription of the prelude to the first cello suite. For many this is sacrilgige. The violin pieces appear to translate verbatim to the mandolin with the exception of bowing which allows more legato.

I agree Yo Yo Ma probably won't gain anything from Theile's interpretation but until he does it how do we know? Do you say OK Pablo Casals did it best no one else should even attempt it? Baroque ornamentation is not some secret science. You may not be able to pull off the more extended ornaments but many others are very possible. I just feel it's time for the instrument to be given a chance. And there's people out there with the technique to do it.

Time for someone out there to step up to the plate. The fact that one can play the sonatas and partitas on the mandolin more or less using the same left hand fingering on the violin does not make them idiomatic for the mandolin (nor would one necessarily use the same fingering, anyway). The same is also (more or less) true of the Paganini Caprices. Some of them are playable on mandolin, some of them are marginally so, and, unless you are from another planet, some of them aren't. As for guitar, the current standard is the Stanley Yates edition of the cello suites.

Yates points out, one can play the cello suites as in on guitar but the notion that this has some greater claim to authenticity than, say, adding bass notes is mistaken. The guitar is a different instrument than the cello; one must imagine what Bach would have done had he adapted the pieces for guitar.

Many years ago the Australian mandolinist Keith Harris gave a highly informative interview in Mandolin World News where he discussed the very issue of playing the sonatas and partitas on the mandolin. Harris at the time was arguably the best classical player in the world. He concluded that the pieces sounded better on the violin. For my money the best classical mandolinists in the world today are various Germans. Gertrud Weyhofen clearly possesses the technique (and, more importantly, the musicianship) to play Bach, but she hasn't (to my knowledge) made a recording. Not long ago I had a discussion with Tamara Volskaya about playing Bach on the domra.

She plays a great deal of Bach but not certain pieces because, I am paraphrasing, she claims she can't make them work. Tamara routinely plays the most demanding violin repertoire at the same tempos as any concert violinist. My fundamental point is that this is a truly monumental endeavor that requires someone not only to have the technical ability to play the notes (of which there are many people) but also the imagination to make these pieces sound as if they were written for the mandolin. The best guitarists -- on very rare occasions, it should be emphasized -- can make Bach sound as if it were written for the guitar. Doing the same on the mandolin is what I have trouble wrapping my brain around.

Believe me, though, if Mr. Thile puts out a recording of a complete suite, I will be right up there at the front of the line to buy a copy.

There are many purely technical issues of playing these pieces and he is quite resourceful at coming up with solutions to technical puzzles, among his many other skills. As I said several exchanges ago, as material for enhancing technique and musicianship there is arguably nothing better than Bach. Thile going so strictly 'classical' would certainly raise a few eyebrows, but I don't think it's likely to happen soon. #Some lutenists have taken to recording the cello and violin works too. #I tend to favor dedicated repertoire over transcription/arrangement, but I have dabbled very minimally with the concluding allegro from BWV 1003.

#Frankly, it works better for me playing a 6-course mandolino fingerstyle than on a Neapolitan mandolin with a plectrum, in spite of the differences in tuning. #It would be much more amusing to me if a character like Paul O'Dette elected to record the violin sonatas and partitas on such an instrument than if anybody endeavored to play them on modern mandolin.but I'm weird.

Maybe not Bach, but there is so much guitar and mandolin(o) music of the era that is of some quality and is utterly devoid of champions, there isn't any chance of it being exhausted in my lifetime. #I'd rather look there for my musical fodder. Margo, Thank you for your reply. I think these discussions are interesting and educational.

Sometimes I find myself playing devil's advocate as I studied classical guitar with some amazing musicians and loved the Bach transcriptions for guitar more than anything else in the repertoire. I looked up Mr. Yates website and found some interesting articles he wrote while working on his Doctorate in Texas. While he states the Bach violin music translates very well to guitar he finds the cello suites troublesome.

While discussing these problems he states 'This is not the case with the cello works. In order to produce an effective transfer to the guitar a degree of alteration must be made. These changes involve not only the addition of notes but also the alteration of notes.' He then procedes to discuss in various chapters how he goes about making the suites adaptable for guitar.

While I can't say I've done an exhastive study playing all the cello suites from the original on mandolin, don't the cello suites seem to adapt to mandolin without adding and altering notes? The small amount that I have looked at seem to transfer very well. This is my point in saying this music may traslate to mandolin better than guitar. If we go so far as to add and alter notes isn't something lost? I remember reading Hemingway's 'Islands in the Stream' only to fing out his fourth wife had 'edited' it after his death as she was 'sure ' he would make the same changes.

I found that somewhat disturbing. I don't think Bach had such a sense of reverence for his music as modern musicians looking back do. #He was a working musician who took no qualm with modifying his own work or that of others for a number of varied situations. #Compare BWV 1006 for violin to BWV 1006a for lute or the fugue from BWV 1001 to BWV 1000 for lute.

#.Or listen to Vivaldi's concerto op. 8 #for comparison to Bach's BWV 593 for organ. #There are countless similar examples. #Bach (or whomever the period arrangers were) didn't seem to feel altering music to make it idiomatic to a specific instrument compromised its quality.

Many years ago -- 1983 to be exact -- Mike Marshall and Darol Anger recorded a Lp called the Duo. On it Mike recorded the Bach Partitia #3 in E Major. I recall that Mike, in an interview, said that it was more work than he had ever put into a single piece. Neil Gladd concertizes with BWV 1006. The prelude is particularly effective on mandolin. I think I remember it was that prelude featured in the wee video of Thile that was circulating a while ago. I've never tried the chaconne (or whatever nationality of spelling you favor), but that style of arpeggio from the piece's climax is the kind of thing that classical mandolinists thrive on.

I've never tried the chaconne (or whatever nationality of spelling you favor), but that style of arpeggio from the piece's climax is the kind of thing that classical mandolinists thrive on Us violinists too. But I think the main challenge of the Chaconne (if you'd like to use that term) is the proper voicing and accentuation of the ground of the Chaconne. If somebody could play it satisfactorily, I'd happily say that the S&P are possible on the mandolin. After that, I'd ask for the last movement of the C Major sonata (allegro). Now THAT would be interesting. Of all the Sonatas and Partitas, which one would be the easiest to start with from a technical standpoint?(for mandolin) I'm working my way through the third cello suite now but want to move up to one of the S&Ps. Thanks, Mike After looking quickly over my copy of the Sonatas and Partitas, looking over my violin fingerings and phrasing, and attempting to play them on the mandolin, I'd suggest any of the later two 'Double's (of three) in the first partita.

The first is VERY presto. The second two are easier. The second double (in 9/8 time) is the easier of the two. I play that particular double at about 65 BPM, with 'one' on each downbeat (of threes). It's a nice tempo. Hi Jim I'll try to make this simple. It is a difference in the actual form.

A quick way to differentiate a Sonata or Partita is the title of the individual 'movement'. A sonata will have it's movements titled as tempi or style (ie Siciliano).

A Partita usually consists of dances. Two of the partitas start off with the Allemanda.

In a partita, you'll see stuff like Double, Corrente, Sarabande, Bourree, Giga, Ciaccona, Loure, Gavotte, Rondeau and Minuets. These are Sonatas: Sonta #1 in G minor (s. 1001) - Adagio, Fuga, Sicilliano, Presto Sonata #2 in A minor - Grave, Fuga, Andante, Allegro Sonata #3 in C Major - Adagio, Fuga, Largo, Allegro Assai Note that most of them are known by their tempo, or by their style (Sicilliano) or structrue (Fuga, or fugue).

All three Sonatas have a Fugue in them. The Sonatas also have four movements. These are Partitas: Partita #1 in b minor (s. 1002) - Allemanda, Double, Corrente, Double, Sarabande, Double, Tempo Di Bourree Partita #2 in d minor (s. 1004) - Allemanda, Corrente, Sarabanda, Giga, Ciaconna Parita #3 in E Major (s.

1006) - Preludio, Loure, Gavotte en Rondeau, Menuet I & II, Bourree, Giga Note that Partitas are longer than Sonatas. In most editions it's usually listed as 1. G minor (Sonata) 2. B minor (Partita) 3. A minor (Sonata) 4. D minor (Partita) 5.

C Major (Sonata) 6. E Major (Partita) So, yes, Jim. I was talking about #2, the b minor Partita.

Probably an overcomplication to your question, but oh well. Love your mandolins, by the way. One confusing thing I have been finding is: what distinguishes a sonata from a partita? Is it a difference in the actual form. However, the terms were still mighty variable in the baroque era.

When Bach designated 'partita,' exactly as dfxlr says, you can take it to mean a suite of dance movements, only often a little more capricious or Italianate than those things Bach called 'suite.' If Bach wrote 'sonata,' again as dfxlr says, you can expect a small collection of abstract movements bearing no more title than a description of tempo (e.g., Allegro or Adagio) or form, not necessarily related to dance. However, 'sonata' didn't need to mean any more than an instrumental work for one to a few players. A good many Italian composers were perfectly happy incorporating dance movements into things labeled 'sonata.' Corelli, e.g., distinguished between purely abstract sonatas and those that contained dances as 'church' and 'chamber' respectively.And if Weiss wrote a sonata or a suite, it was almost certain to mix abstract movements with dances.

Pretty much any wee, single movement Scarlatti wrote gets called a sonata. Things became more codified with the end of the baroque. 'Sonata' still refered to a work for soloist or chamber ensemble, but also came to describe a form to emphasize contrast and development. The form came to pervade most instrumental composition, often in the first movement of classical and romantic multi-movement works, be they sonatas, symphonies, or concertos. Of course, there also are always exceptions. Oh, and per Auer.

Auer has his 'Auerisms'. Besides being the greatest teacher of violin, he certainly does some strange things - awkward fingerings, some weird bowings, and he actually said that Bach's two violin concerti (a minor and E Major) were not 'worthy of their composer'. Gotta love that Auer. I have noticed a few of these awkward fingerings and just ascribed them to the necessities of being a classical violinist. I am happy to see that there are things that don;t make sense to a violinist. Is there a edition where the fingering largely does make sense.

Then again, I found that in the Hladky edition of the Beethoven mandolin pieces, that there were some odd fingerings for which I could find no real reason. That is why I opted for an urtext edition and played it more or less my way -- wrong or not. Hey Jim I'm glad you found your way to urtext. Most violinists in recent times worth their salt will use urtext and make their own fingerings. Editions with fingerings are usually used either by students (who frankly don't know any better) or those who don't want to make their own fingerings.

Of course, many good violinists use editions because it makes sense to them and are close what they'd do by themselves or need guidance as they discern what is 'right' for them. Personally, I think the edition by Galamian makes the most sense, but I don't know how that would translate into mandolin. I'd have to play around with it. But, as far as a violinistic standpoint, it's the edition you love AND hate. You love it because it makes sense. You HATE it because he uses second position.a lot of it. Joachim's is good, too, but it ties notes together that some may not hear as one entire phrase.

My first teacher always taught me something about fingerings and bowings: simpler is better. As in engineering, something fancy has always room to gum up and get ruined.

The simpler, the better. However, the desired tone is the objective. If simplicity doesn't get you musically where you want to be, then change it.

Some of the weird fingerings you may be seeing is an attempt at a tonal effect. However, shifting all over during Bach isn't ideal - especially on a fretless board with the danger of hearing a shift's 'scoop'. In Baroque, simplicity of fingerings and shifting is paramount. Finally, are you listening to recordings of the S&Ps? That may help.

Personally, I think the edition by Galamian makes the most sense, but I don't know how that would translate into mandolin. I have to agree with dflxr that the Galamian fingerings overall are the most sensible. Check My Drivers License Number Online. To me at least. But as it has been otherwise stated, one would do best to use the urtext editions when playing these on violin.

Probably every violinist in history has modified even the 'best' editions to fit his/her own hand. As far as translating fingerings to the mando, Galamian is the most conducive to this (far easier than Flesch, for example), but not in all cases by any means. My own mandolin editings for MandoBach should be viewed as suggested fingerings. What works well for me might be a nightmare for someone else -- just ask some of my students. They're given as perhaps a good starting place, but as you work through them I'd be surprised not to find a number of pencilled corrections for facilitate your own hand. I like to study fingering options (suggestions) from the past and find that a lot can be gleaned from giving serious time to understanding the why and how of these performance aids. Of course, many of us only look at fingereings as solutions to technical expediency.

I believe that some of the most extreme examples of so-called 'whacky' fingereings come from the great player/composers of the past. Campagnoli, Fiorilo (who started as a mandolinist) and Cartier are prime examples from the end of the 18th century where the fingereings are not to make the music 'easier' to play, rather more expressive and colorful. Auer's editions as well those of his famous students Heifetz and Elman demonstrate this approach. With Bach, we have a tendency to become such 'purists' that anything that strays from 'plain vanilla' approach to fingereing is considered bad taste. Yet, when you hear some 'enlightened' modern day historical performances of Bach, there are no qualms about the extreme use of rubato (it's beyond rubato) and all sorts rhythmic tricks to get over the tricky bits or in the act of over interpreting.

I heard a performance the other day on the radio by some baroque violinist and I litteraly could not stomach the rhythmic free-for-all and turned it off before I found out who was playing. Originally I felt that our job as mandolinists was to play 'original' mandolin music, but I believe all music is worth challenging ourselves with the mandolin.

In fact, the less 'mandolinistic, the better since it will force us to challenge our capabilities even more. I play the Sonatas and Partitas from a copy of the original MS.

There are a couple instances of fingereings written in (by Bach?) but, oddly enough, they are among the most obvious. On the mandolin, I would not hesitate to use tremolo if played on one of the double strung neapolitan type mandolins. There are a couple of recordings of the d minor partita, one by Neil Gladd another by a Japanese mandolinst, name escapes me right now. Neither uses tremolo but both succeed with the music regardless on the modern mandolin. The proverbial 'kiss of death' in doctoral oral exams was the question 'Could you please trace all the applications of the term Sonata across music history?' *malicious grin* (Argh! That takes one all the way to CZERNY and beyond.) On the other side of your twofold point, yes: partitas, ordres, suites.

The stuff that has kept musicologists employed. On a per-movement basis, of course, (and apart from the occasional prelude), the norm is binary, 'dance' form, AB:II: AB (thematically), AB:II: BA (tonally).

But I digress. As per the original topic, I must admit that I have lived with the cello suites so long, in the original register, that I find them hopelessly 'treble-y' on mandolin— just my impression, and one I don't expect anyone else to share. My own taste —and only that— would favor works for violin on mandolin, as opposed to those originally written for the cello. Hello, first of all apologies for my english. As this is my first post here I briefly introduce myself: My name is Mathieu Sarthe, I am a mandolin teacher in a national conservatory near Paris, I'm a concertist and I work regularly with french national symphonic orchestras and opera houses. I played on the mandolin almost all of the S&P for violin (except BWV 1002 and the loure of BWV 1006 wich I think can't sounds 'right' on the mandolin). I tried to play the cello Sonatas on a Calace's liuto cantabile, and I dont think they could sounds good on a mandolin.

I think this music is a must-do for any serious student, because of it's difficulty and because nothing in the classical mandolin repertoire can match those pieces. Besides, apart the fugues, this music is not that difficult technically, any player with a solid technical background can manage them I guess. Musically they are of course incredibly hard, that's why they are interesting to study, and playing them in concert (especially the Ciaccona) is a tremendous experience for the player, even if I'm not sure anymore that the audience feels that way. Some mandolinists in Europe are playing the S&P, partly because, I guess, that our instrument and the people playing it are overlooked in Europe. There is a kind of 'see, I can do it, I'm a real musician' feeling about playing those pieces on the mandolin. I think that playing a Bach's Partita on a mandolin in concert dont valorize(?) our instrument for two major reasons: first, they are very challenging pieces for the 'average' audience, I never meet somebody after one of my concerts that enjoyed the Bach's piece most of the rest of the program. Second, you always facing the risk of having a violonist or a conservative musician in the audience that dislike your work, and therefore will never change it's point of view towards the mandolin or the mandolinists in general.

I'm maybe wrong, but I don't think playing Bach's S&P on a mandolin will brings dramatic changes in the way this music is played or feel. The fugues are interesting I guess because one can play more legato than on the violin and works more with the harmony and the dissonances. But the mandolin lacks the violin's grandeur and expressiveness in the ligatura. I wanted to write more things but I have no time and I'm very limited by my english, hope I was understandable though. Welcome Mathieu! Thank you for responding to our discussion. I think you communicate very well.

Isn't it a shame audiences do not repond well to entire Bach Suites or anything they percieve as too long and boring. In classical guitar it is the same among musicians. If you can play an entire lute suite well you are considered proficient. If you play it well technically and musically you are repected. Then you play it in a recital and people go to the bathroom. I get so much personal enjoyment from this music I see it as a lifetime endeavor (on any instrument). I know of jazz musicians who study Bach seriously (Mike Stern, Jim Hall, etc.) I hope we hear more insight from you in the future.

Mike (Michel en Francais). Bach, of course, was the first jazz musician; or at least is revered by jazz musicians for his harmonic content in single note lines. I love the whole of his body of work (not that I've heard it all, but that's what's good about getting older- more to look forward to!) and have enjoyed playing various parts of the sonatas and Partitas as well as some of the Cello suites. My small experiences in classical music politics makes me wonder how an all-Bach mando recording would be recieved- there is always someone ready to rain on your parade regarding interpretation, tone, rhythmic feel, you name it.not to mention the outrage people get into by the mere fact you are using a plectrum instead of a bow.that stuff is the kind of annoyance you find in any style of music, but in the classical world, it's all the more vicious, perhaps because the academic side is so rigorous and produces so many 'experts' http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif. There is always someone ready to rain on your parade regarding interpretation, tone, rhythmic feel, you name it.not to mention the outrage people get into by the mere fact you are using a plectrum instead of a bow Ah, well said!

And a great segue to lead me into one of my favorite rants Having a fairly strong background in early music, it really annoys me how 'purists' love to complain about transcriptions (playing something on an instrument other than the one for which a piece may originally have been written). This seems to be something of a modern development as transcriptions abound from all other time periods. Sure, it's great to hear music as it may have sounded to the original audiences (period instruments and all), but the bottom line is music is music! As a composer, I guess I should be one of those persnickety people who insist that my music should only be played exactly as I wrote it. But I don't see things that way. To me the composer 'suggests' -- presents a musical thought or idea that is then taken up by the performer (perhaps on the instrument I envisioned, or perhaps on another with which he feels he can better articulate that idea) and interprets it, adding to it his own vision and artistry. Just look at the works from the Middle Ages.

In most cases we have little idea what instruments were in the composers' minds when they set them down on paper. Most likely they were played with whatever instruments were at hand, varying greatly with the troupe's personnel and instrumental holdings -- probably also with their venue. (They also improvised the music a great deal, but that's another discussion.) Why do we get so bent out of shape these days when it comes to transcriptions? Do you folks agree we're too uptight.

Or am I just full of it? My small experiences in classical music politics makes me wonder how an all-Bach mando recording would be recieved- there is always someone ready to rain on your parade regarding interpretation, tone, rhythmic feel, you name it.

I've witnessed this too John. The serious classical guys do seem to be kind of hard on each other, don't they?

Still, I'd love to hear an all mandolin version of the Sonatas & Partitas. I've heard that at some point down the road Chris Thile might record them but truthfully, I'd welcome and wholeheartedly support any well recorded / exectuted version of them on mandolin! And not to hijack a thread here, but will you be participating in any way at all at next week's 'Summer String Fling'? I talked my way into the program (as a mandolin player) and was hoping to least be able to say 'hi' to you at some point. .that stuff is the kind of annoyance you find in any style of music, but in the classical world, it's all the more vicious, perhaps because the academic side is so rigorous and produces so many 'experts' Frankly, I think it's far worse amongst the bluegrass crowd. #Outside of academia and the world of publish-or-perish, I think classical musicians are much more accepting than implied.often.sometimes.maybe.

I am one of those characters who rants against transcription, especially regarding that for guitar. #I actually love artfully crafted transcription and do not remotely dislike the concept. #What frustrates and saddens me is when transcription is embraced as standard repertoire to the neglect of (or more often from ignorance of) music conceived for any given instrument.

#The brave can read some of my diabolical advocacy here (welcome Mathieu. #I enjoyed your insightful post. Someone earlier posted about Neil Gladd.

I looked up his website and lo and behold he has previously recorded the entire Partita in Dm (BWV 1004)including the infamous Chaconne. Unfortunatly this recording was issued on LP (one year before CDs were issued.) The site states there are no plans to reissue this on CD. Has anyone heard this? It's the only recording I've ever heard of on mandolin with an entire Partita. The site does say the LP is still available.

May have to dust off that old turntable for this one. [quote=jmcgann,July 13 2005, 15:35]Outside of academia and the world of publish-or-perish, I think classical musicians are much more accepting than implied.often.sometimes.maybe.

I think so too. The academic side is EXTREMELY vigorous, which is why I started more folk music as a break.

It is definately more 'intellectual' and 'booky' than many of folk styles I've done. You have to remember that even amongst our ranks, violinists are heavily criticized for every movement they make. But, if the S&Ps were done on the mandolin I think many 'experts' would cut it some slack.

I myself would be charmed at the noveltly (meaning ligitimate, but 'different') and take it as it is. With this having been said, I must stress though, that this sort of Classical 'academia' has it's place in music.just like non-academic music. Might as well stir this up some more. Cello Suites/ Violin Sonatas and Partitas. Who has done (in your humble opinion) THE DEFINITIVE recording/performance. I've included both recording and performance due to the fact you may have seen a recital that surpasses anything (you've heard) on record. I'll start off with a performance of the Ciaccona from BWV1004 performed by Leo Brouwer on guitar in Toronto 1975 (or there abouts).

The entire recital was amazing (Henze, Bach, Jobim) but this really stood out and was the talk of a festival that featured some of the leading guitarists of our time. Too many to list. His use of baroque ornamentation was spellbinding with technique and musicality.

Jaco, so how many copies of the LP do you want? I have boxes of them! I haven't been trying to sell anything from my website, but that is about to change. If anyone wants one, send me an email. Bach arranged some of his violin and cello pieces for the harpsichord and some for the lute, so we know that didn't have a problem with hearing his bowed string music on a plucked instrument.

Since the mandolin is a member of the lute family, is tuned like a violin, and sounds like a harpsichord, I know he would have approved. I DO have a problem with Bach on the piano, though! I play primarily original mandolin music, but I often do 1 or 2 violin pieces on a concert just to have something people have heard of, before.

My approach to playing violin music on the mandolin is to play it as a mandolinist would have when the piece was written. I don't use any tremolo on the Sonatas and Partitas because they don't need it, but I have tremoloed a note or two in Bach's sonatas with harpsichord and concertos, where a sustained sound was really required. Thank you all for your warm welcome. I'm also very pleased to see that Neil Gladd is a member of this forum. I sent many mails to you, I have some live recordings of your Toccata on my hard drive, I'd like to send them to you, an advice would be very appreciated Back in time, the composers were not very conservative about the instruments used to play their music. I have dozens of 18th century sonatas edited in Paris labeled:'6 sonatas for the mandolin, can be played on the violin and sounds well with a flute'. I agree with the tremolo in Bach.

In general, tremolo was never used in classical times, although it was known. It was called 'trill' in Fouchetti and Leone's methods and in my knowledge, the first notes I saw in tremolo are in Corrette's Mandolin Sonata (approx 1770-72). By the way, for those interested, I have a recording (mp3) of the Chaconne I made in a Church 5 years ago, the sound is quite poor, there is 3 nasty cuts in the recording, and the audience was a bit noisy at the end (13 minutes!), but that can give an idea of how the Chaconne sounds on the mandolin.

I also have the fugue in G, but I can't stand it played that way anymore, so. Edit: I'm interested by a CD too.

But I fear that could be complicated. I have the technology to put it on a CD, but just haven't done it yet.

Once I have that done, I would throw in the CD copy if you buy the LP. Maybe this weekend. Theglauber at yahoo dot com (or send me a pm through this forum) My last turntable stayed behind when i moved from Brazil to the USA. It's too bad, but that's the way it is.

I assume you can buy one of the real good ones these days for less than the price of the parts, but i don't have space for it, or any LPs to play (they stayed behind too). About tremolo in 18th century or the classical period, I would be very cautious about saying that it wasn't used or just barely known and accepted. We all know the quotes from Leone, Fouchette and tend to ignore the opposite opinion of Corrette.

If you have a look at Haydn, Beethoven and similar luminaries in there part writing for strings (of course, bowed), it is full of tremolo (bowed) requested from an instrument that can sustain very nicely without it. Tremolo is not just to sustain notes, it is to enliven them, to give direction, emotion. Why, if Bach is so adaptable on so many instruments (voices) should one deprive it of tremolo if played on the mandolin with conviction and art? Why not play it on the piano? Mendelssohn, Gould, Bussoni, and even Bach himself certainly didn't have any problems with that (Bach had actually had an occasion to try out an early fortepiano by Silbermann)? I have played baroque violin, various types of early mandolins and related historical instruments for many years now, have studied in depth the main sources but also many other documents hardly known and, to be honest, I would not rule out anything other than the impossible (flat wound strings, rubber picks, discreet or not so discreet amplification, you see what I mean) if our goal is historical re-enactment.

Tremolo existed as an expressive device and was certainly not every player's forte (those like the famous 3 french players) and they discouraged its employ. Others really made good use of it and most fell somewhere in the middle ground.

Sorry to disgress on the topic, but I do enjoy Bach on all instruments (even the modern piano). For Neil, I just realize I don't have your LP either. Would love to have a copy when you are ready to sell them, fortunately I do have an turntable still (goes well with my 1970's period sound system). I, too, would be happy (thrilled, even) to pay someone to make me a CD of Neil's album. #My turntable was the first part to go from my '70s vintage stereo system, some 15 years ago, but I've still not parted with all my old records (sigh).

Right now the best stereo I've got is on my 'puter! As far as unaccompanied Bach goes, I'm reluctant to 'gush' yet again, as I've already related ad nauseam on this board how these works have always been my primary motivation for exploring the mandokin world. # When I was still wet behind the ears at 19, the violin teacher with whom I had just recently started virtually knocked my socks off one day, by announcing he was going to start me on Bach (none of which I had yet studied) - with the Chaconne! He explained that I would be able to learn many other movements of other of the S&Ps along the way, but that the Chaconne would take 'a long time' to master, so I might as well get started now. #Boy, was he ever right on the 'long time' part. It is one thing to learn the notes, and quite another to learn the music! #But this piece is certainly right up there in my top several 'what I'd need to have with me on a desert island' items.

After lo these many years, I confess I now 'hear' the Dm partita in Gm, as it wasn't until my viola switch that my playing of this work began coming into its own musically.;) I find that the bass line comes out and sings much more readily in this key and with the resonant timbre of the lower instrument, and it is also for this reason that I've longed to play the plucked version I imagined in my mind's alternate universe for a long time on a mandola. The mandolin is of course easier, but less satisfying. I have only been plucking for five years or so, and it is a learning experience all over again, as my right hand technique has come a long way but still has a long way to go. Oddly, I find about 70% or more of the Chaconne easier to fret on a mandolin than to finger on violin nowadays (with viola being the easiest), but then, it is the remaining portion where a bow surely comes in a lot more handy than a plectrum for navigating the string-crossings. But all in all, I find it a fascinating and absorbing piece from which I am still always learning new things! # I would love to hear a recording of any unaccompanied Bach on a viola or mandola, especially of the violin works, but I'm not holding my breath. There is an old recording re-issued recently on CD of the complete cello suites performed on viola by Lillian Fuchs (I have not bought it yet, but probably will very soon.

I have read nothing but excellent reviews of it. The Chaconne - It would be a peak day in my life if I were able to negotiate that journey without a hitch! Given my very limited capabilities that day may be very far off, if it ever comes; but it doesn't matter. Just being able to work on such a piece, even if only sections can be played passably well, is still a great joy. My experiences with it have sometimes been comical, as when I realized that I had gotten the voice leading all wrong in the big arpeggio section. I had found the higher notes so difficult to master that I gave them far too much emphasis. Then one day I was able to play fast enough to hear the ground and realize its importance - big joke on me!

Strangely enough, after that the whole section got much easier to play. So I'll keep at it, whether I'm likely to perfect it or not.

If you can ride a rainbow who needs the pot o' gold? Neil, put me on your list, please.

All youse hotshots who can rattle off this Bach make me wonder where I went wrong. I've been working up the prelude to the 1st cello suite for months, and have only now got it by memory, and can play it thru with a mistake or two.

I expect to spend the next 6 months making it sound like music, instead of what it sounds like now. It is gratifying, however, and whatever it may sound like to others, I feel it was well worth the effort. (I had to memorise it since I suck at sightreading, and my eyes are beginning to fail. But that way it ends up being easier to really own the music, and eventually get it to sound right).

Bob A, I admire your confidence and playing ability. Sadly, I have been reduced to a shell of my former self, spending my time hunched over my mandolins for the last 18 months, surrounded by spilled coffee and old mandolin strings, in a relentless pursuit of making the first cello suite sound like music! I, like you, can play through the prelude without making a mistake, but that is based merely on how you define mistake. Viktor mentioned 'Mandobach' by Wolfhead Music in the previous page. Link to Wolfhead: MandoBach features 16 selections from the Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin, carefully edited for performance on mandolin. The selections have not been simplified but merely edited with fingerings and other instructions that make the works more accessible on mandolin.

Edited by John Craton. My copy arrived today. It's well-printed, easy to read and not over-edited (good). Compared to the other Bach mandolin book i have (Mel Bay's), the pieces in this one are a lot more difficult, but i guess if you want to approach the violin sonatas and partitas, this book is a good way to do it. One thing i didn't like: there was no apparent thought given to avoiding awkward page turns - get ready to use the copier and Scotch tape. Unlike the Mel Bay book, this one doesn't have tab (not a problem for me, because i never use tab anyway, but i thought i'd mention it). The folks at Ars Nova are a good bunch and very pleasant to deal with.

One thing i didn't like: there was no apparent thought given to avoiding awkward page turns - get ready to use the copier and Scotch tape. Actually, much thought was given to the page-turning problem, but as the music in each movement is continuous they simply could not be avoided in some cases. We apologize for the inconvenience, but there was just no way around it. (The works are generally performed from memory, but a bit of Scotch tape might come in handy while learning them.) Very glad you liked the volume otherwise, and we appreciate your kind words. If only Bach had given us sufficient rests, maybe we could have accommodated the page turns as well.

One thing i didn't like: there was no apparent thought given to avoiding awkward page turns - get ready to use the copier and Scotch tape. Actually, much thought was given to the page-turning problem, but as the music in each movement is continuous they simply could not be avoided in some cases. We apologize for the inconvenience, but there was just no way around it.

(The works are generally performed from memory, but a bit of Scotch tape might come in handy while learning them.) Well, for example, the first piece (Presto from Sonata #1 in Dm) starts on a right-hand page. If it had started on a lef-hand page, there would be no page turn. Same for the Double in page 7, the Allemanda that comes after it, etc. Well, for example, the first piece (Presto from Sonata #1 in Dm) starts on a right-hand page. If it had started on a lef-hand page, there would be no page turn.

Same for the Double in page 7, the Allemanda that comes after it, etc. Well, that would solve the problem for those, but subsequent movements that don't have page turns then would, at least if the movements are presented in their current order. We'll play around with the layout and see if we can remedy at least the most troublesome areas in future press runs (though even my various violin editions have these annoyances). Do you think people would mind if the pieces were printed out of order? That might be a solution to the page-turning problem, and since they're excerpts, perhaps that's the solution. We'll endeavor to find a remedy if possible.

Thanks for your input! We're always open to suggestions. One of the things that makes this message board so profitable http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. I have been out of town. I see I have missed quite a lot. Mathieu: I agree with your sentiments 100 percent.

While I was away (on vacation) I took my mandola + a copy of the Bach cello suites. They do sound lovely on the mandola -- I think better than they would on a mandocello (or liuto). To continue, with hopes that RSW (or another proficient violinist will respond), here is a technical problem I have puzzled over in the S&P's. Suppose one has a three or four note chord, which are quite common. On the violin these are arpeggiated in some form, for obvious reasons.

On the mandolin, they could be played as one would play normally a chord on the mandolin (which, strictly speaking, is also arpeggiated). Or one could duplicate the violin phrasing -- that is, break up the chord. Which is better? (not sure 'better' is an appropriate word). Bob (et al), One uses good taste (or just taste) with respects to if and how much arpeggiation one gives to chords. There are so many factors that will influence this that one really needs to get specific about the context to make any recommendations. Listen to any studied harpsichordist, fully capable of playing 10 notes simultaneously, and you can get some idea about the subtlety of playing chords.

There was a time not so long ago that some violininsts thought that one should approach Bach with full sustained chords, to the extent of using a funny bow that could sustain all 4 strings at once. Well, this has been easily shown to be false and that the score, as written, is not always to be literally played as if on a synthesizer. How I would play Bach on the mandolin (chords) would not be all that much influenced by the violin. First of all, these three or four-note chords are arpeggiated for style, not because we can't. Hitting (emphasis on HIT and NOT sustain) a four note chord is difficult, but it can be done (you'll especially hear it in a cadenza). This wasn't probably done in the period of Bach.

To play chords, as you can see in the S&P, we play either arpeggiated ricochet or break the chords. We arpeggiate these chords for style, leaving emphasis on the harmonic tones (not the root of the chord). Imagine, if you will, the opening of the g minor sonata (I). I myself can hit that gm chord - easy (but it would be loud). But would I want to?

It's an accepted norm to break up the chord. I suppose you could do either or, but remember, these were written with the Violin in mind.not something that clunked out full chords all at once. I agree that one could play the chords on the violin, more or less, as written but that no violinist does this (at least none that I know) because, among other reasons, it would generally sound awful.

I also agree with RSW that the 'funny bow' approach has been shown to be false (incidentally, there was a re-release on the Testament label of a 1950s-ish recording using said funny bow). The issue is whether one should play the chords on the mandolin with the accepted violin norm in mind (i.e. Duplicate it) or play the chords as one normally would on the mandolin and to make a coherent argument for either approach. Obviously, we cannot ask Bach but I wonder if there might be some relevant discussion (not exactly on point, again obviously, but still perhaps relevant) in some 18th century tutor for the mandolin. My personal preference, on the mandolin, is to play said chords with the accepted violin norm in mind, at least in some instances in the S&P.

On guitar, I generally do not do this. The reasoning here is almost entirely due to the different methods of plucking the strings; on guitar, I can pluck all the notes in said chords simultaneously whereas one cannot really do this on the mandolin. Sometimes the former is better on the guitar, depending on the musical line. I agree that one could play the chords on the violin, more or less, as written but that no violinist does this (at least none that I know) because, among other reasons, it would generally sound awful. #I also agree with RSW that the 'funny bow' approach has been shown to be false (incidentally, there was a re-release on the Testament label of a 1950s-ish recording using said funny bow). #The issue is whether one should play the chords on the mandolin with the accepted violin norm in mind (i.e.

Duplicate it) or play the chords as one normally would on the mandolin and to make a coherent argument for either approach. #Obviously, we cannot ask Bach but I wonder if there might be some relevant discussion (not exactly on point, again obviously, but still perhaps relevant) in some 18th century tutor for the mandolin. #My personal preference, on the mandolin, is to play said chords with the accepted violin norm in mind, at least in some instances in the S&P. #On guitar, I generally do not do this. #The reasoning here is almost entirely due to the different methods of plucking the strings; on guitar, I can pluck all the notes in said chords simultaneously whereas one cannot really do this on the mandolin. #Sometimes the former is better on the guitar, depending on the musical line.

Well, as I have said before.the S&P were written for the violin in mind, and as you have said, hitting whole chords wouldn't sound good (but not awful - who have you heard hit full chords? Again, I hope one day you'll hear a clean four-string chord that I'm talking about). Even Bach would've written this. Certainly Bach anticipated and expected the breaking of the three or four note chords, and wrote the music with this in mind. Certainly Bach anticipated and expected the breaking of the three or four note chords, and wrote the music with this in mind.

One could equally argue that Bach was conceiving idealized music that transcended the technical limitations of whatever instrument (although the freakish 'Bach bow' would seem to argue against this: yikes! #Sounds alarmingly synthesizer-like). #Frankly, I have no idea what rolled through Bach's head when he committed music to paper. Playing the whole chords simultaneously has plenty of plucked precedent; it's the status quo for guitarists. #To my ears, it sounds just fine that way.

#Whatever interpretation a player can justify to him-/herself can be made to work. I'm sitting here at my computer, listening for the 3rd time and marveling at Neil's splendid rendition of the Chaconne.

Any doubters should do themselves a favor and get a copy from him. (I could never pick that broken-chord part around, oh, 6 minutes into the movement, as cleanly as he does, even if I were to dedicate my next year of practice to it alone! I'd love to see his right hand in motion while doing this section.) The whole Partita sounds excellent, but the Chaconne is truly the high point, both musically and technically. Thanks again, Neil!:-) bratsche. I'm listening to Neil's LP/CD for the second time through, and i can say, it really, really doesn't suck. In fact, if it did any damage to the music, it was negligible.

Wonderful, especially the Dm partita, and especially the Chaconne. That's really exciting stuff. The more modern pieces don't attract me, but they were beautifully played nevertheless. In the Aria movement of his own Sonata for Solo Mandolin, he obviously used a magic spell to give himself an extra picking hand. Neil, thank you very much. I had been wanting to listen to this LP for a long time.

It's very nice of you to copy to CD. Please record more Bach. In the Aria movement of his own Sonata for Solo Mandolin, he obviously used a magic spell to give himself an extra picking hand. This remind me something, sorry I'm off-topic: Some time ago I played this Aria in front of Alberto Ponce, who was the guitar teacher at the superior conservatory of music in Paris (CNSM) at that time and one of the best guitarists alive. He found this piece 'remarkable' and was quite surprised when I told him that the aria last more than 4 minutes. It's so well written he thought it was much shorter!